kerdi membrane over cement board

@DMoore- OK, I agree that with redguard it would be redundant. BTW the older Kerdi thread referencedwas excellent. Using cement board and a sheet membrane . Step 3: Apply Thinset. Rolling pin, good, now I can throw away my magnesium float.LOLCasey. Continuing Education for Architects & Designers. One of the major benefits of opting for Kerdi Board over cement board is the ease of installation. RedGard can be applied to cement board panels in two ways: Roll it on the wall with a 3/4-inch nap roller or spray it on the wall. Actually if you watch any pros work (not on crappy shows) on TV you will see them use backer board 99% of the time. Out of curiosity, why are any of you suggesting backerboard at all? If youre not careful, the boards can also leave behind abrasive sandy crumbs that can cause damage to your shower base or tub. I will say that to is easier to put the membrane over drywall than cement board. Kerdi Board as a whole is much easier to install than Cement Board. By clicking Post Your Answer, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. While cement board may be the most common and widely-known tile substrate, Kerdi Board is giving it a run for its money. Modified thin-set mortars must dry for the polymers to coalesce and form a hard . I simply sponge off the excess. Whether youre installing tile on a floor, wall, or countertop, choosing the right type of substrate, or underlayment, is critical to preventing breaks and cracks in both the tile and the grout. Seems like I've been using the full measure of water the bag calls for, plus about 10%.-50 lbs of thinset at a time is too much for an amatuer. This allows the cement to properly hydrate, resulting in a strong, dense bond coat. It could take longer if the space is particularly wet or humid. I hang Kerdi on cement board and fibercement board all the time. When it comes to applying KERDI, however, it is advised to use a regular thinset that includes portland cement as its main component. Following the correct application of Kerdi membrane over cement board will ensure a successful waterproofing installation and lasting results for your tile project. I can take a bit of it off the wall and roll it into a ball. When screwed to the framing, thin strips of cement board fracture more easily than thin strips of fiber-cement. When I tried to use the edge of my trowel [per schlutter video] I could see I was pulling a lot of the 'felt' off the backer. Porcelain and ceramic tiles are stiff and hard materials, so if they are installed on an unlevel or bouncy surface they are highly susceptible to cracking. LONDON. Kerdi-Shower-T/-TS/-TT is a prefabricated sloped shower tray with integrated Kerdi waterproofing. Schluter Kerdi-Shower-T/-TS/-TT 48 in. Can be cut to size easily using a utility knife. You can apply it on PVC, metal, slabs, walls, and floors. By the time you switch from the RG application to the Kerdi installation, it should be dry. Yes, Schluter membranes can go over cement board. They can be installed on any type of support and can even be used to create partitions, with no structural support required. Foam-core tile backing board has two big advantages over other backer boards. This will ensure that the coating sticks to the cement board. A good rule of thumb is 24 hours per inch of thickness, then one more day on top of that to be sure. The back side of the drywall fails and it is just as bad or worse than if it had an issue on the tile side. Can I install Kerdi board just on the walls of my shower and use a PVC membrane on the floor? Since KERDI is impervious, it does not deprive the mortar of its moisture. Step 1: Measure the area. Will use the Schluter Shower system. This feature makes building the base structure much easier and more cost . The big issue with cement board is that the thinset will skin over really quickly. Their lighter weight makes moving panels around during installation a cinch, which is a far cry from the heft of conventional cement board. if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[728,90],'remodelormove_com-mobile-leaderboard-2','ezslot_25',167,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-mobile-leaderboard-2-0');Waterproofing should be done prior to the installation of any tile including behind the shower tile. Another advantage is that the polyisocyanurate core of foam boards is waterproof. It is easier to cut than cement board, it is mold resistant, and it has a built-in moisture barrier. Kerdi Board is also significantly lighter in terms of weight than cement board, meaning they can be transported and lifted into place with ease evening hauling five panels at a time should be no problem. It's a lightweight polystyrene board faced with Kerdi that comes in various thicknesses that you can use in place of drywall or cement board. If you are laying tile on floors that are wavy or out of level, self-leveling underlayment is a great solution. Once youre sure that the membrane is completely dry, you can then move forward with tiling. #4 You could be adding a good 1000 pounds to your install too. Following the instructions for the product being used and ensuring that all of the necessary steps are followed will help to ensure a successful installation. On a vertical surface, very little moisture . ), Minimising the environmental effects of my dyson brain, Finite abelian groups with fewer automorphisms than a subgroup. After installing your mud bed, make sure it is fully cured before applying Aquadefense. The kerdi membrane will probably do the same, and its regularly installed over drywall which is probably less stable. Kerdi 3 ft. 3 in. Thanks for contributing an answer to Home Improvement Stack Exchange! A lot of folks like using cement board but it's heavy and requires a waterproofing membrane over it. But you might be struggling to figure out what kind of paint to use on garage walls. Since the existing wall board will be removed, I'd prefer to go a little extra and install a water proof cement board type base so the tile has a solid substrate even if it were to get wet, such as from a plumbing leak, or from infiltration on an exterior wall (as unlikely as that might be). Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4HjHT6_cUo, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEt6irjJCI0, My master suite addition & full bath to 1/2 bath renovation. The 1/4-inch-thick board is typically used on floors and countertops. Personally, I like standard drywall. First, its super lightweight compared with the rest. I don't want to use the Ditra membrane product but rather tiles directly over the cement boards. It is important to overlap the edge of the membrane so that it covers slightly more than half of the drywall behind it. To line niche shelves, for instance. With that said, lets take a look at the importance of choosing the right tile substrate, the options you have, and which tile underlayment material you should choose Kerdi Board or cement board? Bulk update symbol size units from mm to map units in rule-based symbology. However, if installed on drywall, it only protects one side. I would get someone else. The gridlines printed on the surface are beneficial for the installation process, also allowing for quick, neat cuts with a utility knife. If there is no blocking behind the seam, i would just tape prior to installing the membrane, the thinset will fill the seam and embed the mesh. you should still water proof with a liquid membrane product like RedGuard. Applying a conventional cement backer board to such a structure is almost impossible. When applying thin-set mortar, the manufacturers instructions should be followed closely. x 60 in. The cement board needs to be clean, free of debris, and dry. We also found that using a heavy rolling pin worked wonders for really setting the Kerdi. Set ceramic and stone tile over the KERDI membrane with unmodified thin-set mortar, including large format tiles. Schluter-KERDI is a pliable, sheet-applied, bonded waterproof membrane and vapor retarder with limited crack-bridging capabilities. We use a pump action garden sprayer and its usually dry by the time we clean the sprayer. It fell right off? In the worst case, it's OK to cut the Kerdi, remove the damaged section, scrape up the thinset from the areas, and set a new piece of Kerdi. Tile Shower SurroundCement Backerboard Location? This will help to ensure that all drywall is completely covered. It is lightweight and made of expanded polystyrene. This allows for future compression and an area at the corner where things are more forgiving. If you choose to use Aquadefense as a shower pan liner, be sure to continue it up the walls at least 6", tying into your waterproofing on the walls. The Schlter system tends to be more durable than a cement board, but it also depends on the particular application and the weather. Thinset with a latex acrylic modifier is best for interior projects, but if youre installing outdoors, you should use thinset with a polymer modified (PM) compound for greater moisture resistance. If you want added info there's an old Kerdi thread here. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. Install an Uncoupling Membrane Between Concrete and Tile. The shower tray eliminates the need for a mortar bed. What to use to flatten and prep wall before installing Schluter Kerdi membrane for tiling? Though, each product comes with its own individual characteristics, and pros and cons. if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[580,400],'remodelormove_com-leader-2','ezslot_21',165,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-leader-2-0');Once the seams are sealed, lay down a waterproof coating to the floor and walls of the shower space. The waterproof membrane isn't a substitute for the substrate. ", Signed,Never Hung Kerdi A Day In Her Life. Putting this stuff on walls is difficult and time . When it comes to selecting thinset for cement board, there are a few important factors to consider. Like the example above. Kerdi can be installed first on drywall or cement board. We are DIYers who have already remodeled one bathroom successfully, but this is our first time using The Schluter shower system. When cleaning thinset off of Schluter membranes, the manufacturer recommends using a wet sponge and taking care to avoid any scoring or inconsistencies on the surface of the membrane. To create a watertight shower assembly, we installed Schluter's Kerdi membrane over the drywall, just as we would for tile.Write by:. Finally, make sure to select a thinset that is appropriate for the job, check the manufacturers recommendation, and always follow the instructions on the product label. And second, since it's foam, the board is super easy to cut with just a utility knife. Kerdi is also used as shower lining, as required in IRC Section P2709.2 and IPC Section 417.5.2, over concrete, mortar, tile backerboard, expanded polystyrene foam board, prefabricated polystyrene shower trays, curb and ramp, gypsum board and masonry substrates." So, you can choose what board you want in your shower when using Kerdi. This product is available in 3/16", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8" 3/4", 1" 1-1/2" and 2" thicknesses, allowing for a wide variety of installation options. #1 - Backer board has nothing to do with HD or any other big box. Yes, you should prime drywall before installing KERDI in order to ensure proper adhesion and a successful installation. Kerdi Membrane is a product of Schluter systems. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. Do you have any pictures? How long should I wait after painting on the Redgard before I try to reapply the membrane? It worked well - just like wallpapering. What do you mean it doesn't adhere? Hi David. And for a more secure fit, you can also use screws. I have to redo my tub surround due to moisture leaks and failing grout. I think I'll try using the thinned mixture of Redgard and then try the Kerdi membrane again. When applying the primer, make sure to cover all surfaces thoroughly, as these will be completely covered by the KERDI membrane. Here is a video off the Schluter-Kerdi website that describes how to apply the waterproof membrane on top of the substrate (gypsum board in this case): http://www.schluter.com/schluter-us/en_US/Shower-System/KERDI-SHOWER-KIT/Schluter%C2%AE-KERDI-SHOWER-KIT/p/KERDI_SHOWER-KIT. The surface of Wedi is perfect for bonding. As far as the tile/prep work, you are right that he is shifting the blame. KERDI features a modified polyethylene (PEVA) core with non-woven polypropylene on both sides to anchor the membrane in the thin-set mortar. DensShield is one common brand. Re: Kerdi on shower curbs. While cement board and grout are not waterproof, Kerdi is and can even be directly installed over drywall. The Kerdi membrane should be applied with the standard procedure, using a hogg brush or a notched trowel to spread the thin-set mortar and a roller to ensure appropriate adhesion. Cement board and grout are not water proof, if there's Kerdi no moisture is ever going to be able to get behind it. Please feel free to reach out to our Product Support Team at 1-800-992-6273 if you need anything. It's still applied to cement board. Backerboard plus a waterproofing membrane like Redgard is all that is needed for tub surrounds with thinset then tile. Sloped Shower Tray KST1220/1525 - The Home Depot. We ended up sponging the Hardi and wetting and booking the Kerdi (a la wallpaper), and that made the installation go much smoother. The thin-set mortar should be mixed to a fairly dry consistency and then spread on the surface with a 1/4 inch square notch trowel. One of the company says they are going to apply kerdi membrane on the drywall, then tiles onto the kerdi membrane, and as such as cement backboard would not be required. Personnaliser mon exprience l'aide de cookies, Landscape Architects & Landscape Designers, Outdoor Lighting & Audio/Visual Specialists, epoxy or marine paint over greenboard for my shower walls (not tile), Need advice on bathroom remodel - using hardiebacker boards, HELP! Moisture resistant can cause similar problems, and there is absolutely no advantage to it. Dean, our tile consultant, says glass mat backer board is his first choice due to the ease of installation, cost, and because his workers like it. Cement board is readily available and relatively inexpensive (about $10 for a 3 x 5-ft. sheet). Needless to say, the drywall turned to mush. I usually use Durock. This means that even if your waterproofing system leaks, the cement board will remain intact. Kerdi, a waterproofing membrane made of a special polyethylene fabric, should be allowed to completely dry prior to tiling. What are the differences between "paperless drywall" and "cement board"? Sledge hammers for the floor, that might take a bit of time. builder, anti-builder, rebuilder -- Retired Moderator. Why is this the case? The colour is different. How do you show the depth of a hole in a drawing? Kerdi-Board is an extruded polystyrene foam panel, with reinforcing material on both sides, covered by fleece webbing for effective anchoring of thin-set mortar. Caulk the gap. Will be doing a bathroom gut and will be laying durock cement board over plywood sub floor. In general, the Schlter system is typically more expensive than a cement board, and some people may find this an attractive option for its long lasting, easy to maintain qualities. if you go with vapour barrier, then cement board. Various products can be used to waterproof shower walls such as water-resistant drywall and cement backer boards. vegan) just to try it, does this inconvenience the caterers and staff? Water-resistant gypsum board, or green board, was used in the past as a tile backer but is no longer recommended, mainly because better products are available. The Kerdi is essentially replacing the backerboard. By: Author Olin Wade (Remodel or Move Stuff). ;). :/. Removing bathroom tile from cement backerboard, Transition from KERDI membrane backed, to not backed. Cement board (cbu) is not waterproof, but is not damaged by being wet. And we are using a drippy mixture, it slides off the trowel. One thing I do like fibercement (Hardie) for is when I need thin strips of cement board. I agree that gypsum seems very questionable anywhere in the wet areas of a shower. Should I use Kerdi membrane or cement backerboard? If you preorder a special airline meal (e.g. Additionally, seal the space around any pipes and fixtures that can be found in the shower. I've seen preferences regarding HardieBacker and the cement board products such as Wonder Board. It costs more but it;s worth it for the ease of install IMO. Cross your fingers and hope it's all OK. Not the best Kerdi Showcase. Hello D Zak! MAPEI makes products for each step of the remodel process, giving you a single source solution, and only one phone number to call if you need assistance! It is also essential that cement board joints and fasteners be sealed and waterproofed with the Kerdi Fix sealant to help prevent water from leaking into the wall and floor cavities. ), Schluter SET, ALL-SET, FAST-SET or an unmodified thin-set mortar is recommended. PROBLEM SOLVED for Tub Flange when Installing Cement Board and Tile. When installing Schluter Kerdi Membrane over cement backerboard: Should I use Alkali Resistant Mesh Tape and thinset on the seams of the backer board (for long term durability to prevent each board moving independently thus preventing cracking) prior to installing the Kerdi membrane. When installing KERDI with unmodified thin-set mortar over particularly dry and porous substrates, it is recommended to wet the substrate first, in order to help prevent premature drying or skinning of the thin-set mortar. We store towels, medicine, toiletry supplies, first-aid gear, massage devices, facial steamers, spare Painting your garage is a great way to improve the look of the space and make the walls easier to clean. Yes, KERDI membrane will stick to cement board. The curb doesn't have to be any wider than a 2x4. Once the adhesive has been applied and has had time to properly cure, then the KERDI membrane can be applied to the wall. Finally, use a roller or brush to ensure that the membrane is secure and has no wrinkles or air bubbles. Overall, waterproofing behind and around shower tile is a critical part of any installation to ensure that the area is adequately protected from water and moisture damage. This will prevent water from entering from behind the membrane, and will provide a more secure waterproof layer. What I would be most scared off is the fact that no inside or outside corners appear to have been used. A place where magic is studied and practiced? A mortar wall is better and can be customized easier. Greenboard is the same as regular drywall. This allows the cement to properly hydrate, resulting in To ensure the floor is clean, wipe it with a wet sponge. Since my guys and I will be doing this for the first time next week, I 'd like to take advantage of your 'learning curve.' #2 - Your suggestion has plenty of merit though. We tried adding water to the thinset, we tried . Your air bubbles will travel along the valleys you've made, and it's way better if you only have to move them 20 inches to the nearest edge rather than all the way from the ceiling to the floor [Again, Mongo can, but he has mad skills].-Not paying attention to the principle of bedding top down, center out. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. Even the tiling subs have moved away from mortar walls because of the labor cost and lack of craftsmen in the industry. We tried soaking the cement board and applying the kerdi in small sections. Now there's nothing particularly wrong with fiber-cementit's just not my first choice. You're correct if you use the shluter kerdi membrane you do not use a vapour barrier since it creates a sandwhich effect that doesn't allow the substrate . I used 1/2 Hardibacker board over the studs and then used the Kerdi membrane over the Hardi. Installation instructions vary depending on the type of Kerdi membrane being used, but typically the membrane is applied directly to a clean, dry plywood surface that is free from dust, dirt, and other debris. Why are Suriname, Belize, and Guinea-Bissau classified as "Small Island Developing States"? that's home depot homeowner installation method. If you do not already have the hardi up, I recommend using real cement board (Hardi is a fiber-cement) or drywall. Home Improvement Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for contractors and serious DIYers. Is a PhD visitor considered as a visiting scholar? It is a fast process that is hard to mess up if you do it right. This will ensure a strong bond between the KERDI membrane and the substrate. Is it suspicious or odd to stand by the gate of a GA airport watching the planes? However if installed on drywall it is only protecting one side. A.Sean Gerolimatos, technical services manager for Schluter Systems, responds: With a few exceptions, unmodified thinset mortar is required for setting ceramic and stone tile over Kerdi membranes (800/472-4588, www.schluter.com ), as well as for bonding overlapped seams and connections to Kerdi drains. The type of bonding mortar used to apply KERDI must be suitable for the substrate and must penetrate and engage the membrane fleece. Depending on your project and the specific cement board you are using, you will want to select a thinset appropriate for both.if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[468,60],'remodelormove_com-large-leaderboard-2','ezslot_15',158,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-large-leaderboard-2-0'); The two primary criteria to help guide your selection are the type of cement board you are using and whether you are installing it indoors or outdoors. Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. Look at it this way; Withe Kerdi, you either trust it or you don't. Modified thinset adhesive is a premixed product that contains latex or acrylic components which make it quite a bit more flexible than regular thinset adhesive and therefore better suited to some applications. Kerdi does admit that you can use cement board. Portland cement-based unmodified thin-set mortars are dependent on the presence of moisture for hydration in order to gain strength. An additional layer of sealant can also be applied on the seams for extra protection and water resistance. Keep in mind that most tile setters err on the side of caution and brush a waterproofing membrane on top of cement board when it is in wet areas like showers or tub surrounds. I want to mount a cast iron bathtub, but not pull down my 1905 plaster and lath. A successful tile installation largely depends on the substrate that the tile is attached to. Retired Moderator - Theatre Guy (and computers). We are no longer supporting IE (Internet Explorer), Do not Sell or Share My Personal Information. When I tried putting up the first sheets, which were only 36" x 39", and even though I had SOAKED the hardi, to the point water was pooling on the floor, the thinset was already drying before I got the Kerdi up, and I couldn't get it to adhere properly no matter how hard I tried. There are numerous ways to do this. You provide the pitch during the tile set. I think it is engrained in me to do that so I forget to mention it. When applying the thin-set, it should be applied in such a way that it fully fills any empty space between the Tile and Schluter product and is solid enough to support the weight of the tiles being installed. . I guess I could save a few $ and laminate 1/4" drywall there instead.IOW, is hardi OK to level out the tub flange?Not that it matters, but the tile will be 3x6 carrara to the ceiling.Casey. Additionally, it is important to waterproof cement board before tiling, as the grout and tiles can help keep the board watertight. Using modified thinset on KERDI can be tricky and in some cases, it can cause issues. They are absorbed into the surface material and help keep moisture away from the substrate surface. I guess that why it was so frustrating that cement board is just sooo thirsty. This thread is 9 years old and it's the Hardi board that's thirsty not the Kerdi. If cement board had been used, most likely the damage would have been much less that what I have to deal with now. How did this project turn out? This will include installing its components, such as drain plate and drain collar, as well as Kerdi Band for further protection of seams and corners. Just wondering how effective is the tile on kerdi membrane vs the traditional cement backboard where tiles are glued directly to the drywall? Think about movement. The Ditra uncoupling design is lightweight, durable, and minimizes the possibility of cracked tile and grout. Need help liner vs liquid membrane question. The manual can be found here: http://floorelf.com/waterproof, I would say unless you are experienced in working with Schluter-Kerdi waterproofing membrane kit, then I would say work with an easier waterproofing approach, either liquid waterproofing or a combination of liquid and traditional waterproofing (plastic covering the wood frame). Jun 21, 2017. Being a Los Angeles resident, Jessica spends a lot of her time looking for her next DIY project and sharing her love for home design. If a law is new but its interpretation is vague, can the courts directly ask the drafters the intent and official interpretation of their law? Redgard is a similar product. First Kerdi can be installed on drywall or cement board. A 1/2-inch thick, 3 x 5 foot sheet weighs just 7-1/2 pounds, compared with 45 pounds for a similar size sheet of cement board. Preparing drywall for KERDI membrane requires a few important steps to ensure a successful application. I also used a larger sized trowel than the one recommend by Schluter. On top of that, fiber cement board is even more brittle than standard cement board, so you have to be extra careful to keep screws at least an inch from the edge to avoid breaking the board. Why are physically impossible and logically impossible concepts considered separate in terms of probability? I used this to seal a 3 1/2 by 6 1/2 foot shower with 7 foot walls. Also - use a good thinset. Cement board is a mineral-based board, usually 30 inches by 60 inches, that is used as a lower, dimensionally stable surface for installing ceramic tile, porcelain tile, or stonework. Well, DH said he had virtually no time to work with the stuff before it dried out, so he switched from my spritz bottle to a sponge. But I did want to understand the cost breakdown as the walls then become WAY more expensive than it would be with Redguard. If you want to go to the extra effort of putting the membrane over drywall, there is no need to use greenboard. Schluter says that the Kerdi membrane and tile can be installed over standard gypsum wall board without any problems. You still use metal lath, but then mix bags of powder and pour the soupy mix onto the floor. I would avoid Hardi, as Avanti is right that it is thirsty. Once you have determined the type of thinset, its important to also consider the weather conditions during installation. I have corrugated metal shower surround & grab bars. Keep in mind, that, just to be safe, most professionals choose to install a waterproofing membrane on top of the cement board when installing in wet locations like tub surrounds or showers. Foam-core tile backing board has two big advantages over other backer boards. What Is the Difference Between 'Man' And 'Son of Man' in Num 23:19?

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